Interview with M.E. Thomas, Part 3

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I didn't have time to mention that I had shockingly minimal side effects from chemotherapy. Granted, I am young, and I am your stereotypical Asian skinny bitch, but my doctors said taking these in account it’s still surprisingly minimal. I believe it has something to do with my sociopathy. I firmly believe in the opposite of placebo effects which is called the "nocebo effects", I think people dreaded chemotherapy so much that their fear may have manifested in physical symptoms and made it worse. One of the most profound side effects are nausea and loss of appetite. I have problems recognizing hunger and satiety anyway, so even though my stomach felt a little funny (didn't really register as nausea), I did not take the anti-nausea meds they prescribed, yet I was eating just fine. People said not to eat your favorite food during chemotherapy as you will end up hating those food for the negative memory associated with those food. I don't have such problem either. I also did not take any pain meds after my mastectomy. I was confused when I heard the patient next door wailing during my overnight stay at the hospital. My surgeon was petrified when she saw me at the follow-up office visit because I already pulled out the drain tubes and stitches at home on my own. Oopsie.

Before I started chemotherapy, I had a chemo-port installed. A chemo-port is a central venous catheter that allows the chemo drugs to directly enter your heart where it will be diluted (to avoid repeated concentrated toxicity if you were to use veins in the arms for access). Standard procedures for chemo-port installation surgery is they’ll give you local anesthetics and sedation. They were shocked when I requested not to be sedated. I explained that I’d prefer to be sharp for the rest of the day because I had to supervise a junior scientist later that day and I had a publication submission due the next day. And then I told them it smells exactly like when I perform surgeries on rats. They had a good laugh!

Transcript

M.E. Thomas: ...and we left off talking about, and I'm glad that we got into such depth because I've been telling a lot of my friends too about it, about how interesting i thought it was, our last discussion about how masking sociopathy is different in Asia, and there were three main reasons, let's see if i can even remember them off the cuff. The first one of them is the word "psychopath" doesn't really have the same sort of definition or meaning, like it's not in the common parlance of asian speaking... or not asian speaking but asian countries, and you went through various languages that didn't have that word. Another one is that the norms are so explicit that they're easy to follow because there's not any passive aggressiveness or trying to guess at what the norms are. So, I mean I appreciate that from mormonism that the norms are super easy to follow, it's just like really straightforward, here's what we're doing and so that's good. And then the third one, oh man, oh the third one is actually probably my favorite one, is that emotional displays, individual emotional displays from a person are kind of frowned upon as being an unnecessary burden on the community, that you by giving the emotional display you're requiring everybody to react to you, you know. It's kind of like in at least I think the english-speaking world, we often say "hi how are you" and if somebody says something other than "fine" like, okay I didn't actually mean for you to go into a long story, you know, in fact maybe we don't have the time for me to hear exactly how you are. So I think that is kind of also true, an expectation in the english-speaking world, at least when people are like, you know, like when you're talking to the grocery store person, it's seen as being a burden and inappropriate for you to kind of like get into your emotional world while you're interacting with a bank teller, grocery store person, and so it seems like that's just a little bit more expensive in Asian cultures, does that sound right?

Victoria: Yes. So um, do you have any follow-up questions on what we previously discussed?

M.E. Thomas: No, I just think it's fascinating. I'm like super glad that you explained that last week, I thought wow, this is super interesting, it makes a lot of sense and I can also see why, you know, it's kind of because I guess somebody forwarded me there's been a new... either a new proposed antisocial personality disorder, uh kind of definition or it has been enacted— I actually didn't follow up, I probably should have, it's been a crazy summer right, but uh, in it they took out the criminality. They said, you know, criminality itself is not at all related to the diagnosis.

Victoria: Yeah, about time they do!

M.E. Thomas: Yes, they made it super explicit, you know, it has nothing to do necessarily with criminality and, you know, we have to stop kind of like looking at criminal markers as being markers of whether or not somebody has a personality disorder, particularly because things that are criminal are different culturally, right, so that's kind of what i was talking about is, when i read that it's like, you know, everything, every manifestation of a personality disorder is going to be different based on the culture, the gender, the age, you know, the ethnicity, the et cetera et cetera, all the underlying things that are going to kind of manifest themselves. And so i thought it is kind of weirdly ethnocentric and western-centric to kind of see psychopathy as being this limited thing, you know, the types of things that you experience, perhaps in your own culture, you know, or other, you know, people experiencing their own culture and so are trying to say no this has got to be the thing, this is the one and only, you know, I think there's this internet term "the one true sociopath", you know, I am or this person is, you know, nobody else is the one true sociopath except this. So i think it's interesting to talk to you, so interesting to talk to you and get kind of like this different perspective about how different things would look. But let's continue. You said that you're going to talk a little bit about your cancer journey, do you want to start there? Do you want to start somewhere else? Oh hold on, unmute you.

Victoria: I think i can talk about how my cancer journey has been different from what normal patients go through. So I didn't even take time off work throughout the whole thing, except when I had my mastectomy, so that was a two-week off work, and then right now I have my last chemotherapy session in mid-August and then I'll be done. First of all I will explain more about why I wanted bilateral mastectomy. So I was sufficiently well informed with my science background about this cancer condition, and I was a 32 double D, which is voluptuous for my petite frame I guess? And then the tumor occupied a quadrant of my right breast, had I chosen a partial mastectomy, I would need daily radiation therapy for two months, and regular mammograms the rest of my life, and I did not want to take time off work for radiation therapy, and then also we know that radiation might cause other cancers, right, and then I also do not want mammograms the rest of my life because...

M.E. Thomas: Mammograms are terrible!

Victoria: That, and also it's just low-grade radiation, which again, cancer. And then also uh, Asian breasts are very dense, and mammograms are not the best at catching tumors in dense breasts, which means I might need regular but less frequent MRI if I keep the other one, and breast implants just come with a lot of unwanted complications, so all of these were a no-go for me.

M.E. Thomas: Yeah do you think there... let's hear how you feel about your breasts, like before and after, I guess, you know, like before surgery, like before you even knew that you had cancer, like what were your thoughts about your breasts? You're like...

Victoria: They're nice, I showed them off, but yeah, that's about it.

M.E. Thomas: Do you feel like, you know, they were part of you, or did you identify with them at all, or did you feel like you'd be a different person if they changed at all? Or...

Victoria: No, not at all. 

M.E. Thomas: Did you feel like they reflected on you in any sort of way? Like, oh, these are things that somehow, you know, are like reflecting on you and who you are as a person?

Victoria: No, why would people think that? It's weird.

M.E. Thomas: It's funny because my friend, and I think you read the book, but she's the one whose dad was dying of cancer, right, and she she also has... is it the BRCA gene, right, and so she's been uh, she's also kind of been going through like these ideas of like what to do about it, including double mastectomy, and her approach to things was so much different than my cancer scare, which was also breast cancer, they found like a lump in the breast and they couldn't, um, couldn't do a biopsy for some reason, so they had to do a lumpectomy or whatever, and I was like, whatever, you know, even though I acknowledge that the breasts are like something that other people admire, you know, something other people appreciated about me, you know, at least you know that's what people said, you know, if you just take them at their word, I was like, you know, you can just cut them off or whatever, because I mean, they're fine I guess, but they're also... they're extra work, you know, you have to wash them in the shower, or whatever, you like wear bras, which are not comfortable, you know, it's like, you know, if all said and done, you know, I was like, yeah, sure, I was not afraid at all about losing them, but it's been really interesting to kind of like, hear her perspective about it, which is very much like, you know, like what's the right thing for me, and what's going to help me most psychologically, like a lot of uh, psychological ramifications for things that i would think is just kind of a physical thing. I mean, losing a finger, that's like— that would be a big deal, I'd be like, maybe try to save that finger—

Victoria: Because it has practical value!

M.E. Thomas: Yes, I would probably do daily radiation to save a thumb for instance, because thumbs are very important, but in this situation it sounds like it just was not worth it to you, the breasts, they didn't mean enough to you in order to like actually go through this hassle. That's interesting. Alright, keep going.

Victoria: Yeah, and my surgeon didn't wanted to proceed before I uh, talked to plastic surgeon to discuss options. So she made me do that, and then I still insisted on doing a bilateral mastectomy, and then she's like, "Why? If you have one kidney that's not working, are you gonna take out both kidneys?" I'm like, "But i need kidneys to live! I don't need breasts to live?" It made no sense. And she's like, "okay".

M.E. Thomas: That'd be weird to have just one, although I knew— I had a work colleague who had just one and was kind of like weirdly flippant about it, sometimes she would wear a prosthetic for the other one and sometimes not, and I was like, okay, you know, it's like what's the point at that point? It's already kind of like an appendage and then you're just gonna have it be unequal, you know, it'd be like, I mean, ears serve a purpose but if you had one ear taken off, maybe you'd be like, you know what, just go ahead and take the other one off so it's symmetrical.

Victoria: Yeah, that's what I think, and that's what finally convinced my surgeon that I'm sure I want to do it. It's more about quality of life, had I keep one, that's not what i want to deal with, and then she's okay with that I guess. And then the week after my diagnosis, I went on a trip that was planned months ago with my husband and his sister and her boyfriend, so they do know that we are polyamorous and I'm sociopath-identifying, and I told my sister-in-law that I wanted a bilateral mastectomy and I wasn't gonna keep my nipples, and she was like, "What? Why? You're gonna look so strange when you take off your clothes!" And then I replied, "Yeah, but I can have any breast size I want with prostheses, match the breast size to the clothes I'm wearing, and without it I can look like a high-end fashion model."

M.E. Thomas: Yes, that's what I was thinking too! I was like, you know, because i also have like a similar kind of bra size, but they're like a blessing and a curse I guess, blessing is like you never have to worry about like these shirts or dresses that you can't fill out, you know, they don't look quite right.

But it's a true thing, you know, it's like, most of the time I would rather, you know, maybe not have them. I agree with you, that seems like the best of all worlds, just choose every single day what size you want the breast to be for whatever the clothes that you're wearing, or just don't, then there you go. That's really interesting. Did you think at all about, like, other people's reaction? Did that play like a role? Like, your sister-in-law's reaction or your work colleagues, like, were you kind of like, oh, you know, like it would be good to play the victim the rest of the time, or not? You know?

Victoria: No, not really.

M.E. Thomas: Just practical, just kind of like, yeah that's actually good. I'm glad that—  I don't think too, I don't think I—  I mean, I didn't play the victim, although I certainly was aware of that, like, you know, well uh, I could get more time off work to do this other thing, and at the time I didn't particularly like the work I was doing and I got paid the same amount, and there were no deadlines or something, so to take work off was literally just like a paid vacation or something, so I did take that into account but I didn't go crazy, I just took like a couple weeks off, you know.

Victoria: Okay, yeah, I like it because I have more flexibility at work.

M.E. Thomas: Oh, because the cancer treatment? You're like, oh I have appointments, I have to take off? But your work's a little bit different too, right, because you know, you you're still at the stage where you're actually trying to accomplish things that are going to like lay the bases, the groundwork, I guess, for the future.

Victoria: That's why I didn't take time off work, but I just like the flexibility of not having to go in nine to five.

M.E. Thomas: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so keep going about the the cancer. Was there anything

else about the cancer journey? Oh you said thanatophobia? I don't even know what that is.

Victoria: Thanatophobia, it's like, fear, uh, phobia of dying.

M.E. Thomas: Oh, and do you have thanatophobia?

Victoria: Yeah I do have it.

M.E. Thomas: Oh really?

Victoria: Yeah, it actually kind of goes away after my cancer diagnosis, which I think is counter-intuitive, but yeah, prior to that I did have anxiety attacks if I, um, stop and think about dying, but otherwise I go about my life like normal.

M.E. Thomas: So this is super different from me, you know, but this is kind of I think a family trait because my brothers are this way too, all of my brothers, they welcome death, it's not as if, like, you know, anybody wants to die necessarily, but it's just like if we die, great, you know, maybe even better, you know, like nobody has a fear of death really in my family. There are a couple people who would prefer it not to be, but like, other people have like, just honestly, like, kind of a basically, like even preference, you know, like 50:50 life or death. So tell me a little bit and. was this the first time you ever felt or experienced anxiety about something? Was the fear of death—  

Victoria: Yes, my only fear I guess, is that, and it's funny because I grew up in a christian family, so I used to call myself a christian, and I did not have any fear of dying when I consider myself a christian, and then that sort of go away as i grow up and get more exposed to other religions, because I do come from a country with many different religions, and once I left home and went to college, I went to international university in my country before coming to the US, so I got exposed to other religions, my ex was a middle easterner, he's a muslim, and then I took, like, World Religion class and I learned about other religions and I don't feel like I identify with christianity, and then it's just slowly from christianity to theism to agnostic to not believing that God exists, and that's when my fear of dying started to pop up.

M.E. Thomas: I could see that, yeah, in my family, you know, everybody's basically mormon and it's kind of like, well, you know, who cares if you die, your kind of essence or whatever continues on, and even if it doesn't continue on, even if that's not true it's like, then who cares, "you're not going to miss the life that you had if you're not there to miss it" kind of thing, so but, you said you had panic attacks? Did you ever like go seek a psychologist? Or  just anxiety attacks you said right?

Victoria: No, it's not to the point that disrupt my life so, I can tap out of it, like when I realize that I'm having a panic attack or an anxiety attack, I can tap out of it and decide, okay I'm not gonna—  I'm just gonna stop feeling this way and thinking about it, I'm just gonna—  it's not helpful because if you fear so much about dying and then you spend your life fearing about it, then you are not leaving it out, so I can tap out of it.

M.E. Thomas: Right, so this is kind of actually do you know the Stoics? The philosopher? It's kind of a stoic response, right, and I often think that the stoics are very similar for whatever reason to the way like a sociopath naturally, kind of conceptualizes their own emotions, so yeah same with me, a couple things about this, number one is like, sometimes I didn't— a lot of times I didn't realize I was having an emotion until I noticed physical symptoms, I was like, okay, but why are my hands shaking then, you know?

Victoria: Yes, I'm the same way, I would feel cold, and I'm like, no? Why do I suddenly feel cold? I guess I'm nervous?

M.E. Thomas: So is that how the anxiety felt, or did this feel different from that?

Victoria: Uh, more intense than that.

M.E. Thomas: Okay so you're like, now I have a bunch of physical symptoms and they're so strong that they're almost overwhelming, is it kind of like that?

Victoria: Yeah.

M.E. Thomas: But you were still able to kind of like, say, okay but these are just, you know, this is just the body and "the lizard mind" we might say reacting to a particular thing and so you were able to just kind of conceptualize your way out of it, I guess? Like yeah there's actually nothing to fear?That's good. And one interesting thing, uh, maybe this will happen to you but maybe not, but uh, when I started identifying with my own emotions, right, and Arya kind of has like a similar experience, you're not used to your own emotions and it kind of feels like you're going through like a little bit of an emotional puberty, in fact I think that's a very good analogy, and then it's like you don't know what to do with like these—  it's like puberty, you're like, my body is responding in ways that I'm not familiar with and don't necessarily identify with, you know, but you have to kind of learn to uh, kind of go with it, you know, you have to understand it and to conceptualize it, but one of the tricky things is, you know, like but I think this is true of normal people too, is like when you start to kind of identify with your emotions, sometimes it feels like your emotions are like, truth, capital t truth, like, I feel like you hurt my feelings therefore you are a wrong person, you know, might be a common one or like, you know, I feel slighted, I feel like you offended me therefore the thing that you said was offensive, you know, and the stoics are very good about being like, no your reaction is your own, you know, like just because you got offended doesn't necessarily mean the person said something that was objectively offensive. So the stoics are pretty good about that, but yeah that was like a really hard thing to kind of like, to go from no emotions to having emotions that I'm identifying with, or not no emotions but just emotions that I'm mostly oblivious tois probably the best way to describe it, to having actual emotions was like, wow, okay this is very complicated now to figure out what to do with these, you know, like they're giving me some information, that's true, but they're also giving me a bunch of information, you know, there's a high—  what do we say? A low signal to noise ratio, you know, a lot of noise, very noisy kind of, uh, pieces of data, you know, that you have to kind of like sift through and figure out what's actually going on, and that's like a weird process to have to like learn in your 30s.

Victoria: Yes. Yeah I've been telling my empath friends that I don't really know how to recognize my emotions, like I know I feel something sometimes, I don't know what exactly I'm feeling or where it's coming from, and they find it very strange that I will have trouble identifying my own emotions.

M.E. Thomas: But it sounds like maybe you're becoming even more aware of that? Like even if you're aware of the fact that you're not aware of your emotions, you know?

Victoria: Yeah.

M.E. Thomas: And how does that feel?

Victoria: Uh, it's fun? I guess it's fun to go through, that's about it.

M.E. Thomas: That's how I felt too, in the book I said like, you know, if I could kind of like flip a switch and go to normal, I would do it, because it's just it would be nice to just do something different for a change.

Victoria: Yeah, I want to know how different it is!

M.E. Thomas: Yes, so now it's kind of hard for me to flip a switch and go entirely without emotions, I don't know if I'll ever be able to go that way because I've kind of like, you know, it's like I guess when you're pregnant or something, your body, your skin stretches out and it will never go back to normal? But yeah it has been really interesting, you know, for some people I think it's worse and I actually think this is kind of an interesting thing I've just been thinking about, when some people go through this whole period of identifying with their emotions, I've noticed this I would say about 10 to 20 to 30 percent of the people that I have met, are in this category where it's very traumatic for them and they actually have almost PTSD-like symptoms, because they're not just identifying with emotions that are happening to them now, but they're identifying with very traumatic experiences that they had mostly as children, and so they're just like, you know, they're very uh, it's a very traumatic time for them to go through this period of like starting to identify with their emotions, and some it's a little bit hard to predict who these people are, but one thing that I have kind of noticed is and this is kind of like something that Paula has mentioned before is that there's like a little bit of a link between obsessive-compulsive personality disorder I believe and uh psychopathy, right, like even my own therapist who was always—  my most recent therapist that, there was another person who diagnosed me, yes, but then my most recent therapist was like, you know, I'm hesitant to diagnose you with anything other than personality disorder, otherwise uh unspecified, you know, he said but they're kind of like three aspects to what's going on with you, one is kind of an asperger's thing, one is kind of obviously anti-social personality disorder, and then he's like the third is kind of a little bit obsessive compulsive personality disorder. And I think the interesting thing about that because I've met some other people who are like, you know, there may be like kind of straddling the fence of OCPD and ASPD, and those people tend to be the ones who have had like these traumatic childhood experiences, right, like if a psychopath was just kind of like, you know, created because whatever reasons, maybe not like hugely environmental but more genetic or whatever reasons, or maybe just, you know, a sickness when they were young, you know, but not necessarily like their primary caregivers are being like actively, shall we say like, abusive, to them, right, but if they like experienced abuse in their childhood then they also tend to have OCPD tendencies, one of which is to just be like very compulsive and obsessive about like orchestrating their lives, this is kind of the phrase that my therapist used, and the word that other therapists have used that people have relayed to me. So you're just kind of like, uh, trying to control everything, you know, you're trying to uh, almost obsessively compulsively kind of like, what do people say in the military? They say "situational awareness", right, even when you sit down in a restaurant, you know where the exit is, you know how many people are in the room, you know you're just constantly aware of everything that's happening around you, because you're at like a very pretty high, uh, base, even though you don't experience it, because you're you're like a psychopath, but you're pretty high kind of fight or flight kind of response level, like constantly, like hyper reactionary, let's say, and uh, not super reactionary but you know, you're kind of like prepared for bad things to happen, I think because you have been exposed to so many bad things happening to you especially.

Victoria: Yes I find that people find it weird that I don't listen to music, like usually people during commute to work or from work back home they listen to music or whatever, I don't, I just have to—  I prefer to be alert about my surroundings.

M.E. Thomas: Oh really? Interesting, so you are that way. So you would identify with that type of experience then?

Victoria: Yeah, I'm always alert during my commute, I don't really listen to music that much in my life.

M.E. Thomas: Oh, well, feel free to kind of like sidestep this question, but do you feel like you are that type of psychopath that you, there were like kind of uh highly traumatic things that happened to you in your childhood?

Victoria: I don't think so, my childhood is pretty mediocre, apart from uh, I mean physical punishment is common in Asian families, so I don't think I get it more than other normal Asian family would? So I don't think so, I don't think it traumatized me in any way, and it's interesting when you say people, like, process past traumas because I've been um watching interviews with people who were sexually assaulted when they were children, and it's almost it's almost like when they were going through it they didn't understand what was going on, and they were like fine that way, until they grew up and got exposed to sex, and then they suddenly thought back and realized that oh I've been sexually assaulted, and that's usually when the trauma or the PTSD and all the emotional reactions start, right, I find it very interesting.

M.E. Thomas: Yeah it is really interesting, right, especially I mean, it kind of makes sense in both situations you have like, if you were traumatized in a way that you did not have the emotional language or tools or kind of uh, like self-perception, self-awareness right, to kind of conceptualize it at the time, then you wouldn't be able to process those emotions, but it's really interesting that the emotions still happened, they just happened without you being aware of them and so when you do become aware of those emotions, you have to go back and kind of process that, I mean I would say that's probably 80 to 90 percent true, like most psychologists would agree with what I just said, but I also think that it's interesting that they've done kind of research, uh, I talked about this in another kind of series that we've been doing, the Bruce Hood's book, The Self Illusion, and he kind of talks about like why we don't remember when we were one years old or like younger, we don't remember when we were a baby, and he said maybe one of the reasons why is because since we didn't have a sense of self, you don't develop it until you're about two years old, that we had no kind of scaffolding or framework with which to kind of attach any sort of meaning to the memories and without that ability to kind of process those memories in an emotional or kind of psychological identity-based way, then they just disappeared, you know, they're like inaccessible to us because we're not able to think anymore like that infant that we were, you know, and that happens to me too. Like when you're traveling you suddenly remember other things about other times when you've been traveling or whatever, sometimes you have to like be in that mindset in order to access certain memories, so that made sense to me, but I thought, okay, so once you do, kind of I'd start identifying with your emotions, you are in the mindset to start, you know, thinking about emotions and what happened to you, you know, emotionally then suddenly you have to deal with all these past traumas, it's really interesting aspect of I think psychopathy and some of these other like disorders that involve childhood trauma that people don't really think about or talk about as much, but that's been one of the the more interesting things I've found in like meeting all these different psychopaths, is like how do they relate to their emotions once they start feeling emotions or once they start to kind of realize that they don't feel emotions, but you wrote me in your email about primary versus secondary emotions, did you talk about that?

Victoria: So this uh came from a discussion with my friend after listening to the first part of our interview, so he asked like, how can you not be jealous in a polyamorous marriage or whatever, how can you not feel jealous? I'm like, what is jealous? Is jealous like insecurity that someone's gonna have what you want to keep for yourself, or someone has something that you want to get? So it's like you're upset because you're insecure that you're losing that thing or not getting that thing? And then  the conversation pans out to like, primary and secondary emotions, so apparently secondary emotions are from primary emotions, for example, you feel angry about something, and then you feel embarrassed that you are angry about something, so anger is the primary and then embarrassment is the secondary emotion, and then I feel like I don't have secondary emotions?

M.E. Thomas: Yes, when i first learned about that distinction I was like, okay yes, and the primary ones I do have or I can recognize them myself, and the secondary ones I do not or I can't recognize them myself.

Victoria: Yeah and and then we're talking about, like, frustration and disappointment, and then I was asking him like, isn't disappointment just like, sadness? Sadness because you don't get something you expect? And then frustration is just anger in a specific circumstance that people call frustration? And then he said, "No it's different!" I was like, "are you sure it's different?"

M.E. Thomas: So one thing that Arya has told me, she's just like a couple nights ago was like, oh I had like a little bit of insomnia in the night and she's like, I think I experienced nostalgia for the first time. Do you know what nostalgia is?

Victoria: Yes.

M.E. Thomas: Because this whole time she's always asked kind of like, is this what people mean when they say nostalgia? Like she's brought it up like maybe once every six months or something, you know, it's like, she's definitely like I know nostalgia is a thing, I have never experienced it before and she was like, yeah when she experienced it she was like, it was so weird, I was just remembering what it was like to be with one of my college roommates, you know, and like the house that we lived in and it was a cool house and people coming over or friends, and it was nice. I was like, yep it sounds like you were experiencing nostalgia, cool.

Victoria: Yeah and it's funny last time you mentioned is hunger like low blood sugar? Because that's how I experienced it, like when I was growing up my mother's always kind of frustrated, because when she asked me are you full? are you hungry? I would tell her I don't know and even until now, hunger is when I start shaking from low blood sugar, that's how I know I'm hungry.

M.E. Thomas: Yeah that is funny because another thing with Arya that used to kind of annoy me because she'll get hangry, you know, hungry angry, she will get hangry and I'm like, have you ever thought about being a little bit more proactive about your eating? Like not waiting until it's an emergency and you're like shaking, suddenly we have to stop whatever we're doing? Like have you ever thought about just bringing snacks with you? Or like eating on a regular schedule? It is kind of funny how like oblivious we are to like our own internal processes, but it makes sense because like when you think of like a psychopath as having a personality disorder as somebody who has like some difficulty in relating to their own self their own identity, their own personality, that that there would be these kind of like manifestations of it in which the physical and the the kind of like mental don't always sync up, you know, and I know that's common in other disorders or even like other people, just have like a harder time with it, right, but it is a very, let's say common and consistent trait I think amongst the psychopaths I've met. So we have a quick question, it says: after reading some books I can say that I'm better at manipulating and playing with people than before, so that after reading a lot about psychopaths she feels like she's getting more and more psychopathic and at the same time my life is adopting some psychopathic patterns more deeply like change jobs a lot but making more money as well, because I think I'm becoming a high-functioning psychopath. Does that happen to you? So I guess the question is kind of like, the more you kind of think about being a psychopath, does that make you more psychopathic?

Victoria: Yeah I think so.

M.E. Thomas: I think so too, probably initially because there's like the, okay free to be kind of whatever we are, you know, there isn't embracing it I think though, and there's only 20 more seconds but I think there's uh, after a while though you start to also be like, well maybe if I'm this way there's also a possibility of being slightly different, you know, like slightly—  yeah the way I've just been programmed to be or genetic, so I think at first there is more, you're more psychopathic I think, maybe you start to become more individualistic and less kind of like a stereotype of a psychopath and more just kind of like your own version of it.

Victoria: Yeah i think that's true.

M.E. Thomas: All right everybody, that's it for today, thanks for showing up and we'll see you next week I think, again for Blake.